That was a tad depressing. No mention of the population growth in the last two census records or the fact fabulous people (like me) also came here for university and never left 20 plus years later. We have a rubbish council for sure, but we only have ourselves to blame for that when we keep on voting in the same old tripe!
Liverpool is very tribal too, don't forget. People live and enjoy things in their local areas. The city as a whole might be floundering (it's not, like but...)but there are plenty of wonderful things happening on a small scale all over the place, and it's these things that make life worth living .
I always enjoy David’s articles, but I feel like I’ve read this before, a couple of weeks ago, in The Post, and a couple of weeks before that, and a couple of weeks before that. I don’t have the answers, but I don’t know if or how this cycle of self-criticism and ‘look at Manchester’ helps. Also, throwing a good party takes a lot of skill, but how helpful is a reputation as a party city? Maybe it’s my age, but often when I come into town I feel a combination of threat, hope, and disappointment. Also, what I’ve noticed, returning after 30+ years away, is a kind of ugly and competitive individualism, but that is probably a stage of late or post capitalism and not unique to this city of ours.
I wonder what a positive vision in the now could be.
Things that come to mind are:
1) Is there any appetite for an improved public transport system to really make it one continuous city for commuters, aside from cars and the train. Maybe a tram system?
2) Could we leverage the manufacturing/FMCG base across the Mersey better than currently. Hard to compete with Manchester directly, but we have some advantages that won’t disappear overnight.
3) What could be done to improve the council efficacy? Not sure on this one tbh
People want to leave because of the sheer deprivation and lack of opportunity. Look at Bootle, Toxteth, Kenny, Litherland, Seaforth. Why on earth would people want to stick around for that? Because of a nice waterfront and some footy grounds 30 minutes up the road? We have some of the most deprived areas in the country. I grew up on Fernhill Road in Bootle. Total shit hole. Looks exactly the same now as it did back then (bar a few new-build estates). I did very well in school and college and got a degree, like many of my peers, despite our background. I have 0 loyalty to this city as it stands. I love scousers, and it breaks my heart, but I have no intention of sticking it out here. Its too small and insular. I've seen other commenters talk about community and small pockets of happiness: I promise this isn't the case for the worst-hit. Its dreadful. There is no escape. So of the incredibly lucky few of us who managed to grip on to some form of education, there is absolutely nothing tying us here. Am I going to buy a house on Linacre road where dog shit piles up like brown snow? Or maybe knowsley road where the alleyways are so overwhelmed with full nappies, syringes and empty bottles of white storm that the rats have mutated into dog-sized apex predators? (Jk but my point about the alleyways stands). As someone who has JUST managed to leave that squalor, I tell you now that I can't wait to be one of those people that just visits every decade. I hope my children have a different accent of mine. You can blow smoke up the scouse citizenry's arse all you want - nobody actually cares. There is no unity. There is no hope. Just grim, dirty pavements and kids getting stabbed.
Why do you subscribe to the Post? You clearly hate all things Liverpool with a passion. Just move on and be happy. There’s a song I think it was wrote by a Beatles tribute band, it’s called, Don’t look back in anger!
In all seriousness Shaun, some of the areas you mention are awful and I certainly wouldn’t live in some of them either, but there are really nice parts too, in and around Liverpool…But good luck with your future career wherever it may be 👍
Toxteth is not awful. It has its parts don’t get me wrong, but on the whole it is one of the best areas to live in this city. By some way too. I can’t speak for the other areas mentioned but it’s pretty grim to be tarnishing a whole neighbourhood because of one persons lived experience in Bootle. I thought scousers weren’t a fan of stereotyping??
It isn't stereotyping one bit, it's an observation based in observable, quantifiable facts. "70% of households in Toxteth face deprivation in at least one dimension". Just because you haven't been exposed to it - by your own admission living in the "nice part" - doesn't mean it isn't happening. Don't get offended by me pointing out realities, and then try and make me feel bad for stereotyping. That isn't what is happening, and its this head in the sand attitude that is part of the problem. You aren't the only person in Toxteth.
There are gentrifying areas of Toxteth. But the non-gentrified bits such as Lodge Lane are vibrant, alive, and don't seem at all unattractive to live in. Sadly you can't say the same of the dismal pseudo-suburban rundown 1980s estates that litter much of the city, especially the north. The Hatton-era mindset (still strong in some ways) suggests that if you're working class you shouldn't want or need well-designed housing or parks or least of all, 'culture'.
I felt the same as you in the early 80's Shaun & I got out for a few years - I felt much better about the city when I returned as I appreciated what it had going for it, particularly the people.
Good luck in the future, wherever it lies and remember every urban area has its grot spots!
24 and filled with this kind of bitterness and despair. That's really sad. Always liked Fernhill road too! A ludicrously exaggerated perspective, but I join you in hoping that your kids have a different accent.
you not wrong shaun. I did not go to uni but for the last 20 + years i have travelled from south liverpool to Leeds for work and leeds is a very different pace. My older brother went to essex uni. Got a maths degree and spent most of his life in the US of A. Now in his 70's his wife passed some years back and he has come home. Where does he live. Not in Liverpool that is for sure . He is in Frodsham. As for me. I retire soon. The Royal is no longer the go to centre of excellence for my wife's medical condition and I am already eyeing up property away from here
What a great read. Such a well crafted piece. What cheered me more than anything is I have felt like a lone voice when i've spoken about most of the points raised in this article.If you look at the timeline for the regeneration of Manchester what stands out is how a great leader with vision took control of the city council Richard Lees. 1996 he established the Millennium project, this was tasked with the regeneration of Manchester City centre. 1999 he established the East Manchester urban regeneration project, this was awarded the Commonwealth games, a major catalyst for the wider regeneration. Then with Tony Blair and Brown of the Labour party in power combined with the Manchester MP's in cabinet, gave huge grants to Peel Holdings to regenerate Salford Quays. With a master stroke they moved the biggest gravy train to Salford the BBC. Even the Aviva arts centre was funded by George Osborne. I'm sure you can see the pattern developing here.Sadly our councilors and MPS Were more concerned shouting about poverty porn. I do feel optimistic though as a local businessman,Knowsley regeneration of it's industrial estates, Haltons plans for Daresbury St helens ambitious plans, and our good relations with the ever expanding Warrington all point to a better future for the Liverpool City Region. Come on Liam Thorpe get your act together.
I’ve always felt Liverpool knows it’s place. So many don’t feel like they should bother aspiring as the cards are stacked against them anyway. This isn’t a blanket statement of course, just a feeling I regularly feel speaking to younger people especially.
Also, the desire for quick and easy money among the younger generation aspiring to 0.00001% of online influencers is hurting us.
Another point I’ve noticed is that as soon as someone appears to be doing well in the city it’s instantly linked to the distribution of narcotics by many folks.
Good article and well constructed. The argument for me is settled early on. Manchester for me, and I have worked in and around for many years, Works with the Government to attract inward investment. Does not harp on about it when it goes wrong and owns up when it is there fault.
Liverpool where i have only worked for a few short periods in my working life but still live here is the exact opposites. We blame central government for everything (especially if it is a Conservative Government) and our local politicians never admit to getting it wrong it is always someone else fault and needs someone else's money to resolve. Yet is that not the norm in socialism. So we learn from easter Europe.
As an example if you have a copy of todays local rag (The Echo) there is a letter in there from a chap who came up to attend pride and did not because it was more of a socialist workers event and he is not a socialist. Are the cracks (sic) starting to show in Liverpool pride as well and is it now on countdown to yet another has been event.
Liverpool does have other problems to contend with. Unlike Manchester we are at the end of a line both rail wise, road wise where as Manchester is a pass though hub. This has been the case since the days of liners leaving the port stopped and was one of the reason given for the closure of the old Liverpool sorting office at lime street.
Until we start electing local politicians that can act as such. That is deal with central government raising about tribal warfare of left and right and can also keep a working conversation with Business and most importantly put a muzzle on trade unions . Until we can have local politicians that can sell our location to business, and that is going to be very hard to do then Liverpool will continue to decline into a satellite city to Manchester and one never knows may one day become another suburb of Greater Manchester area
The flip side of Scouse exceptionalism is the minority who go completely over the top in their pessimism . See some of the comments below . David’s article rightly highlights some of the significant issues the city and its leadership need to address . Yes many of our inner city areas are grim but talk to people from other cities , yes including Manchester and you hear the same sort of stuff. Liverpool’s boundaries are relatively small compared to say Leeds so if we look at the LCR as a whole we have some fabulous places to live . You’ve got a city with one of the most vibrant nightlife and restaurant scenes in the Uk, a beautiful waterfront and great beaches . Formby, Ainsdale, Crosby parts of the Wirral would be incredibly sought after places to live if we could just take advantage of some that massive potential the city has .
If the City of Liverpool's boundaries were as wide ranging as Leeds (or Bradford), not only would much of Sefton and Wirral be part of it, but outlying towns like Ormskirk and Frodsham. The advantage Manchester has is that nobody thinks in terms of 'city' boundaries, but like London , Greater Manchester as a whole is seen as what matters. Our problem is that of parochialism, boosted by our recent (city) Mayoral system and a comparatively ineffective Metro mayor.
Great for medics in Liverpool that the Royal College of Physicians outside of Regents Park, London is based in the Spine, Paddington Village (in preference to Manchester and Leeds) near the new hospital.
Christ Almighty! This is like reading something Morrisey's been asked to write and then asked Terry Christian, Gary Neville and Tony Wilson to help him out. Sure Liverpool has its problems, only a fool would try to deny it, but it seems that (as always) Liverpool is to blame for everyone else's ills. Manchester gets new investment, The BBC decides to site it's new Northern Studio's in Manchester (Salford Quays), next thing everyone's like "well they wouldn't come to Liverpool would they, who'd really wanna arse themselves?" Yet I seem to remember Granada TV Actually doing the same at the Albert Dock, and actually producing a few programmes from there, when they closed, we were told it was the difficulty in getting some of the "big names" to come anywhere outside of London.
The BBC Never really moved to Salford because they liked the location, or because of the shiny new "all singing and dancing" Buildings. They are a National PUBLIC Broadcaster & as such, reliant on the Government for a lot of funding, and as such they were basically TOLD by them, to shift out of London, because the Government itself had been told on many occasions, that the UK doesn't begin and end in London, nor do the maps contain the warning "VAST UNDEVELOPED WASTELAND" "HERE BE SAVAGES" so in the end, they very gradually and reluctantly began to "dilute" various public services out of London, so all of a sudden what used to simply be "branch" offices, became completely self governing offices. The move to Salford wasn't without it's hiccups either, many BBC Staff, among them well known names, simply point blank refused to leave London and it got so bad that they were either offered ridiculous "bribes" Wage increases, disturbance payments, help with resettlement and heping famillies find suitable schools, or basically threatened with inlcusion on the next hounours list (the award of the Most Noble Order of the Spanish Archer - El Bow). Still many said they wouldn't move. and sought jobs elsewhere.
Finally, look at the uproar over the proposed move of the ENO out of London, they don't even know EXACTLY where they'll end up, other than it's outside of London, the Shrieks of horror, were almost enough to shatter every pane of glass in the Shard. So is Liverpool to blame for that ? You talk about the likes of the Council and many of the people giving a negative view of the City, maybe so, but they sure as hell don't need any extra help from hand wringing exiles
That was a tad depressing. No mention of the population growth in the last two census records or the fact fabulous people (like me) also came here for university and never left 20 plus years later. We have a rubbish council for sure, but we only have ourselves to blame for that when we keep on voting in the same old tripe!
Liverpool is very tribal too, don't forget. People live and enjoy things in their local areas. The city as a whole might be floundering (it's not, like but...)but there are plenty of wonderful things happening on a small scale all over the place, and it's these things that make life worth living .
I always enjoy David’s articles, but I feel like I’ve read this before, a couple of weeks ago, in The Post, and a couple of weeks before that, and a couple of weeks before that. I don’t have the answers, but I don’t know if or how this cycle of self-criticism and ‘look at Manchester’ helps. Also, throwing a good party takes a lot of skill, but how helpful is a reputation as a party city? Maybe it’s my age, but often when I come into town I feel a combination of threat, hope, and disappointment. Also, what I’ve noticed, returning after 30+ years away, is a kind of ugly and competitive individualism, but that is probably a stage of late or post capitalism and not unique to this city of ours.
I wonder what a positive vision in the now could be.
Things that come to mind are:
1) Is there any appetite for an improved public transport system to really make it one continuous city for commuters, aside from cars and the train. Maybe a tram system?
2) Could we leverage the manufacturing/FMCG base across the Mersey better than currently. Hard to compete with Manchester directly, but we have some advantages that won’t disappear overnight.
3) What could be done to improve the council efficacy? Not sure on this one tbh
Cracking article - touched a raw nerve with me and I imagine so many others.
People want to leave because of the sheer deprivation and lack of opportunity. Look at Bootle, Toxteth, Kenny, Litherland, Seaforth. Why on earth would people want to stick around for that? Because of a nice waterfront and some footy grounds 30 minutes up the road? We have some of the most deprived areas in the country. I grew up on Fernhill Road in Bootle. Total shit hole. Looks exactly the same now as it did back then (bar a few new-build estates). I did very well in school and college and got a degree, like many of my peers, despite our background. I have 0 loyalty to this city as it stands. I love scousers, and it breaks my heart, but I have no intention of sticking it out here. Its too small and insular. I've seen other commenters talk about community and small pockets of happiness: I promise this isn't the case for the worst-hit. Its dreadful. There is no escape. So of the incredibly lucky few of us who managed to grip on to some form of education, there is absolutely nothing tying us here. Am I going to buy a house on Linacre road where dog shit piles up like brown snow? Or maybe knowsley road where the alleyways are so overwhelmed with full nappies, syringes and empty bottles of white storm that the rats have mutated into dog-sized apex predators? (Jk but my point about the alleyways stands). As someone who has JUST managed to leave that squalor, I tell you now that I can't wait to be one of those people that just visits every decade. I hope my children have a different accent of mine. You can blow smoke up the scouse citizenry's arse all you want - nobody actually cares. There is no unity. There is no hope. Just grim, dirty pavements and kids getting stabbed.
Why do you subscribe to the Post? You clearly hate all things Liverpool with a passion. Just move on and be happy. There’s a song I think it was wrote by a Beatles tribute band, it’s called, Don’t look back in anger!
Yep. Good answer Kev. Just ignore it. It'll be fine. I'm sure.
In all seriousness Shaun, some of the areas you mention are awful and I certainly wouldn’t live in some of them either, but there are really nice parts too, in and around Liverpool…But good luck with your future career wherever it may be 👍
Toxteth is not awful. It has its parts don’t get me wrong, but on the whole it is one of the best areas to live in this city. By some way too. I can’t speak for the other areas mentioned but it’s pretty grim to be tarnishing a whole neighbourhood because of one persons lived experience in Bootle. I thought scousers weren’t a fan of stereotyping??
It isn't stereotyping one bit, it's an observation based in observable, quantifiable facts. "70% of households in Toxteth face deprivation in at least one dimension". Just because you haven't been exposed to it - by your own admission living in the "nice part" - doesn't mean it isn't happening. Don't get offended by me pointing out realities, and then try and make me feel bad for stereotyping. That isn't what is happening, and its this head in the sand attitude that is part of the problem. You aren't the only person in Toxteth.
Sorry! Fair point Chris…I love the Georgian quarter, people forget that’s Toxteth
As is a huge chunk at the other end hugging Princes Park. I call it home and love it. Period properties in abundance 😊
There are gentrifying areas of Toxteth. But the non-gentrified bits such as Lodge Lane are vibrant, alive, and don't seem at all unattractive to live in. Sadly you can't say the same of the dismal pseudo-suburban rundown 1980s estates that litter much of the city, especially the north. The Hatton-era mindset (still strong in some ways) suggests that if you're working class you shouldn't want or need well-designed housing or parks or least of all, 'culture'.
I felt the same as you in the early 80's Shaun & I got out for a few years - I felt much better about the city when I returned as I appreciated what it had going for it, particularly the people.
Good luck in the future, wherever it lies and remember every urban area has its grot spots!
I'll be in Leeds for the next year or so, then jumping around the country. Hopefully you're right. I'm not optimistic, though.
Thank you for the wish of luck - appreciated!
24 and filled with this kind of bitterness and despair. That's really sad. Always liked Fernhill road too! A ludicrously exaggerated perspective, but I join you in hoping that your kids have a different accent.
Not bitter but I do despair. You only have to Google the deprivation rates. But keep your head in the sand Terry, its all fine.
you not wrong shaun. I did not go to uni but for the last 20 + years i have travelled from south liverpool to Leeds for work and leeds is a very different pace. My older brother went to essex uni. Got a maths degree and spent most of his life in the US of A. Now in his 70's his wife passed some years back and he has come home. Where does he live. Not in Liverpool that is for sure . He is in Frodsham. As for me. I retire soon. The Royal is no longer the go to centre of excellence for my wife's medical condition and I am already eyeing up property away from here
What a great read. Such a well crafted piece. What cheered me more than anything is I have felt like a lone voice when i've spoken about most of the points raised in this article.If you look at the timeline for the regeneration of Manchester what stands out is how a great leader with vision took control of the city council Richard Lees. 1996 he established the Millennium project, this was tasked with the regeneration of Manchester City centre. 1999 he established the East Manchester urban regeneration project, this was awarded the Commonwealth games, a major catalyst for the wider regeneration. Then with Tony Blair and Brown of the Labour party in power combined with the Manchester MP's in cabinet, gave huge grants to Peel Holdings to regenerate Salford Quays. With a master stroke they moved the biggest gravy train to Salford the BBC. Even the Aviva arts centre was funded by George Osborne. I'm sure you can see the pattern developing here.Sadly our councilors and MPS Were more concerned shouting about poverty porn. I do feel optimistic though as a local businessman,Knowsley regeneration of it's industrial estates, Haltons plans for Daresbury St helens ambitious plans, and our good relations with the ever expanding Warrington all point to a better future for the Liverpool City Region. Come on Liam Thorpe get your act together.
Yes, yes and yes. Thanks David.
Excellent piece. Thank you.
Moved back here after a decade in London and couldn't be happier. Remote working has been an absolute boon
I’ve always felt Liverpool knows it’s place. So many don’t feel like they should bother aspiring as the cards are stacked against them anyway. This isn’t a blanket statement of course, just a feeling I regularly feel speaking to younger people especially.
Also, the desire for quick and easy money among the younger generation aspiring to 0.00001% of online influencers is hurting us.
Another point I’ve noticed is that as soon as someone appears to be doing well in the city it’s instantly linked to the distribution of narcotics by many folks.
A very interesting post where I veered between, do one will you and fair point well made. I even learnt a new word, pyroclastic.
Good article and well constructed. The argument for me is settled early on. Manchester for me, and I have worked in and around for many years, Works with the Government to attract inward investment. Does not harp on about it when it goes wrong and owns up when it is there fault.
Liverpool where i have only worked for a few short periods in my working life but still live here is the exact opposites. We blame central government for everything (especially if it is a Conservative Government) and our local politicians never admit to getting it wrong it is always someone else fault and needs someone else's money to resolve. Yet is that not the norm in socialism. So we learn from easter Europe.
As an example if you have a copy of todays local rag (The Echo) there is a letter in there from a chap who came up to attend pride and did not because it was more of a socialist workers event and he is not a socialist. Are the cracks (sic) starting to show in Liverpool pride as well and is it now on countdown to yet another has been event.
Liverpool does have other problems to contend with. Unlike Manchester we are at the end of a line both rail wise, road wise where as Manchester is a pass though hub. This has been the case since the days of liners leaving the port stopped and was one of the reason given for the closure of the old Liverpool sorting office at lime street.
Until we start electing local politicians that can act as such. That is deal with central government raising about tribal warfare of left and right and can also keep a working conversation with Business and most importantly put a muzzle on trade unions . Until we can have local politicians that can sell our location to business, and that is going to be very hard to do then Liverpool will continue to decline into a satellite city to Manchester and one never knows may one day become another suburb of Greater Manchester area
The flip side of Scouse exceptionalism is the minority who go completely over the top in their pessimism . See some of the comments below . David’s article rightly highlights some of the significant issues the city and its leadership need to address . Yes many of our inner city areas are grim but talk to people from other cities , yes including Manchester and you hear the same sort of stuff. Liverpool’s boundaries are relatively small compared to say Leeds so if we look at the LCR as a whole we have some fabulous places to live . You’ve got a city with one of the most vibrant nightlife and restaurant scenes in the Uk, a beautiful waterfront and great beaches . Formby, Ainsdale, Crosby parts of the Wirral would be incredibly sought after places to live if we could just take advantage of some that massive potential the city has .
If the City of Liverpool's boundaries were as wide ranging as Leeds (or Bradford), not only would much of Sefton and Wirral be part of it, but outlying towns like Ormskirk and Frodsham. The advantage Manchester has is that nobody thinks in terms of 'city' boundaries, but like London , Greater Manchester as a whole is seen as what matters. Our problem is that of parochialism, boosted by our recent (city) Mayoral system and a comparatively ineffective Metro mayor.
Manchester is ahead for one reason only - public money being channeled into it fuelling a speculation boom. It’ll crash.
Great for medics in Liverpool that the Royal College of Physicians outside of Regents Park, London is based in the Spine, Paddington Village (in preference to Manchester and Leeds) near the new hospital.
Christ Almighty! This is like reading something Morrisey's been asked to write and then asked Terry Christian, Gary Neville and Tony Wilson to help him out. Sure Liverpool has its problems, only a fool would try to deny it, but it seems that (as always) Liverpool is to blame for everyone else's ills. Manchester gets new investment, The BBC decides to site it's new Northern Studio's in Manchester (Salford Quays), next thing everyone's like "well they wouldn't come to Liverpool would they, who'd really wanna arse themselves?" Yet I seem to remember Granada TV Actually doing the same at the Albert Dock, and actually producing a few programmes from there, when they closed, we were told it was the difficulty in getting some of the "big names" to come anywhere outside of London.
The BBC Never really moved to Salford because they liked the location, or because of the shiny new "all singing and dancing" Buildings. They are a National PUBLIC Broadcaster & as such, reliant on the Government for a lot of funding, and as such they were basically TOLD by them, to shift out of London, because the Government itself had been told on many occasions, that the UK doesn't begin and end in London, nor do the maps contain the warning "VAST UNDEVELOPED WASTELAND" "HERE BE SAVAGES" so in the end, they very gradually and reluctantly began to "dilute" various public services out of London, so all of a sudden what used to simply be "branch" offices, became completely self governing offices. The move to Salford wasn't without it's hiccups either, many BBC Staff, among them well known names, simply point blank refused to leave London and it got so bad that they were either offered ridiculous "bribes" Wage increases, disturbance payments, help with resettlement and heping famillies find suitable schools, or basically threatened with inlcusion on the next hounours list (the award of the Most Noble Order of the Spanish Archer - El Bow). Still many said they wouldn't move. and sought jobs elsewhere.
Finally, look at the uproar over the proposed move of the ENO out of London, they don't even know EXACTLY where they'll end up, other than it's outside of London, the Shrieks of horror, were almost enough to shatter every pane of glass in the Shard. So is Liverpool to blame for that ? You talk about the likes of the Council and many of the people giving a negative view of the City, maybe so, but they sure as hell don't need any extra help from hand wringing exiles
Is right Baz.
That opening paragraph is fantastic 👏👏👏😂