Yesterday’s 12th July parades are the biggest in the calendar of the Orange Order. But why is Liverpool still a stronghold for these old-fashioned rituals?
I remember as a young man going into the Black Horse pub in Old Swan it’s lounge was divided by a wall and each sides seating was either orange or green and you sat according to religion only mixing and making small talk if you chose to get served at the bar rather than ring the bells that were on each set of fixed seating, bar staff would come and take your order and deliver drinks to tables. “Parlour service” they called it I think. Common in lots of pubs before we ended up with app ordering! In the seventies I had to walk through the Bull Ring in London Road to get across town to print college and my friends were aghast that I was daft enough to risk being challenged as to my religion. As kids we used to have “rivalries” with the caddywacs from a nearby street. They called us the “prossy dogs”. Most of us didn’t have a clue as to why we were on opposite sides, it was somehow passed on through families, even though we were often school friends. Seems a long time ago now but the divisions and prejudice were strong right across the city then.
Thanks Johnny - I remember, as a little boy, watching the parades with my Grandma and Grandad, some 60 years ago. They were the last of our family to celebrate the 12th. My Grandad was a Catholic, and caused a great deal of trouble by converting to marry my Grandma. Seems very silly now.
I wonder which of our current obsessions will seem as stupid to future generations?
My brother married a catholic girl in the late seventies and I remember being sworn not to tell my ageing Orange grandfather about her religion. He was too unwell to attend but the family were worried the fact might finish him off!
Good article. I think some of the rivalry might have dissipated when the large inner city communities such as around the Scotland Road area, which were defined by religion, started to move to outlying areas where catholics and protestants were more integrated.
I tend to agree with that assumption, as that happened with us when our family was moved out to a brand new Housing Estate. As we gradually got to know our neighbours better, we discovered that many of them had been moved from the South of Liverpool (mostly Dingle) to their new houses in the North. The religion/religious factor never really came into the equation, it would simply be ......................... from over the road, or from the top of the street, or next door
A thoughtful and considered piece - exactly why we subscribe to The Post.
We took the kids on holiday a few summers ago to Belfast for a week and visited the Orange Lodge museum in the east of the city. After 'Belfast', the most common geographical reference by some distance was 'Liverpool'.
Kirkby had a good mix of both Catholics and Protestants.
The Orange Parades of the 70s were epic - part of a giant feeder march for the 12th July. The drums were beaten just a little bit louder as they passed each Catholic Church. The men smartly dressed, with the suits, sashes and little hats. Shoes shining and the women also dressed for the occasion - looking like they were off to some social event, which they were.
The baton throwers were Kings for a day - their balancing and throwing skills a marvel to see. Likely been practising it since children. They led each section or so it seemed.
A mate of mine decided to cross the road as one long march made its way past the now gone Sacred Heart Church Kirkby. He was kicked but nothing too vicious. He met the shiny shoes of burly Orangemen not amused at the cheeky little git. He was able to walk away. Many marchers ended up in Southport - for a relaxed evening of drink, fish and chips and maybe a go on the old Penny Falls in the arcades.
Also the odd little sing-a-long of 'Paddy Was a Bas****' with the other side singing 'come and fight me like a man'. Both sides had songs taunting opponents - and both celebrated victories over each other.
Trouble broke out sometimes. I was told youths gathered on the railway bridge in Towerhill Kirkby to hurl things down on marchers. A bit before my day in the early 70s. I can recall going into Kirkby homes with IRA memorabilia and others with UVF and so on. An older Irish neighbour, Moira, once asked my mum if she wanted her to keep visiting as the IRA had been busy blowing up the general public and this made some Irish feel very uncomfortable.
I guess its progress that both sides are not killing each other these days. And like it or not the traditions of the Loyalist Orange did make for a better community in that people gathered and got to know each other. They knew neighbours and knew if Mrs Hanlon down the road was struggling to get to the shops.
Both sides were like that. Based in working class communities which had little going in the way of materialistic offerings, they had to entertain themselves and look after each other. Now communities are far richer materially - but a lesser community spirit prevails.
Neither side wanted to rule the world. As bad as the terrorism got their goals were never such that they could not be accommodated. Unlike some terrorists there was an end goal which was reasonable.
It's sad we have lost that the sense of community loyalists once had. These days old Mrs Hanlon could lie dead for a few weeks in some modern community. Many do not know their neighbours names and don't mind if they don't know them.
Nothing unites the community these days. No one common denominator. Many reject religion. Many have no passion shared by others. Politics is a spectator sport at best. And a grift at worse with the usual suspects lining up for grants and favours.
There is no passion in politics these days - just self advancement. Nest are lined. Nest eggs created. Even the unions have this culture these days. Paid more than some bosses juggling a small business but without the risk. All union losses written off with barely an investigation. Woke madness exists with some also but thats for another day perhaps. I'd join a union if I was working. Bad as they are - I'd not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Old fashioned rituals point to some continuity in community. If we have no past it's easy to manipulate us to be whatever the government need us to be. And nobody wants that. Except the Government.
They want us easily moulded, manipulated by influencers, sports, bad music and bread and circus rituals. Without a past we are nothing. Driftwood on the tide.
I'm a Catholic. I'm likely a republican also - but an English one. But I wish the Orange Lodge and Liverpool Loyalists all the best in keeping traditions going.
As the article says the Orange Order sustained the Tories, in Liverpool, well past their sell by date. A classic example of divide and rule and getting people to vote against their own best interests!
I'm a republican but find it quite amusing that Liverpool fans boo the national anthem as John Houlding, their founder, was a Tory Alderman and a Grand Master of the Orange Lodge.
Back in the day the Liverpool Co-operative Society had a foot in both camps; their shops in the Catholic areas were painted green and in the Protestant area they were painted orange.
I think the Liverpool green/orange divide went deeper into the public psyche than just those who paraded and marched etc. I grew up C of E but my family weren't churchgoers and I only went to church with the school (twice a week).
My mum wasn't even English never mind a Scouser but after I'd introduced my future wife to her in 1969 she asked me if she was a Catholic. Apparently the big giveaway was her middle name of Bernadette and her red hair which made her 'look Irish' (whatever Irish women looked like) !!
Fortunately, my future in laws didn't seem bothered that their daughter was marrying a former Protestant and now confirmed atheist. Quite progressive really, for the time, but the grip of the church was already starting to loosen and now, as in Ireland, is largely a thing of the past.
Apparently, the Orange Lodge parade would take well over half an hour to pass by on the 12th of July back in the 1970s as they neared Exchange Station and the specially chartered trains that waited to take them to Southport. At a walking pace of say, 3mph, that would make the procession 2 miles long, maybe more. It must've been quite a sight to see.
I say "apparently" and "must've" because I never saw them pass by myself. I was marching with them as a junior member. Mervyn Busteed is quite right when he says that the Lodge was as much about the social life and family connections as anything else, at least from my child's perspective. I do know that at the time, the 12th was my fourth favourite day of the year after Christmas, birthday and bonfire night.
I walked away from The Lodge in my mid teens but I still miss the camaraderie and singing the old songs. The grip that the religious / doctrinal aspect had on members of The Lodge had loosened quite a bit by the time I left. I remember my mum telling me repeatedly that she'd forgive me if I married a [Catholic], as long as I really loved her.
In the end I married a Methodist though and I'm not convinced she ever forgave me for that
Back in 1940s/50s Page Moss our street was a friendly-ish mix of catholics and protestants, where youngsters attended school at either St Ally's or Park View. I remember my mother who, with my father, had been a refugee from the middle of town (Highfield St and Shadlow St respectively), keeping an eye on new neighbours (itself a shock to the system) who had a motorbike and sidecar and never spoke to anyone. When one 12th July they set off with the sidecar decked out in orange regalia, her worst fears were confirmed.
Have a female friend, aged 81. 1 of 6, grew up in the Dingle in a 2 up,/2 down, outside loo etc. Dad was a docker. Still votes Tory because her Dad did.
An 'OK' piece but typically poorly researched. Your use of the word words 'the North' when referring to Northern Ireland shows your pre-conceived ideation prior to speaking to a member of the Orange Institution. There are more than a few 12th parades throughout mainland Britain.
Yes, today is far different from 50 years ago (or longer), but even back then my Roman Catholics mates would go to Southport on the Twelfth.
Old-fashioned? Perhaps to some, but look at the reason why we celebrate Bonfire Night, not too different ;-)
PS. Your photo of "The Orange Lodge on Mill Street in the Dingle" shows a social club frequented by all sections of the community - the 'Orange Lodge' is the building next door!
Would think something like this would die out over time, with younger people no longer interested or wanting membership. Would like to see a Post piece about Freemasons in Liverpool, would be an interesting piece.
For anyone interested in the early(pre WW1) history of sectarian trouble in the town/city, I recommend Frank neal’s Sectarian Violence: the Liverpool Experience. It’s hard to get hold of nowadays but the thesis that became the book is free to read online : https://salford-repository.worktribe.com/preview/1500415/Neal.pdf
Thanks a million! I was thinking of that movie - could not recall the title - but have had an ear worm regarding the singing of the song 'Paddy was a bastard - eee, aye, eee, aye, ee aye oh'
Very interesting piece thank you. I asked my mum if I could join when I was younger as it looked great fun, my mum said no, not explaining that Catholics weren’t allowed in. We had neighbours who were big into it, but never had any bother and looked out for each other.
I remember as a young man going into the Black Horse pub in Old Swan it’s lounge was divided by a wall and each sides seating was either orange or green and you sat according to religion only mixing and making small talk if you chose to get served at the bar rather than ring the bells that were on each set of fixed seating, bar staff would come and take your order and deliver drinks to tables. “Parlour service” they called it I think. Common in lots of pubs before we ended up with app ordering! In the seventies I had to walk through the Bull Ring in London Road to get across town to print college and my friends were aghast that I was daft enough to risk being challenged as to my religion. As kids we used to have “rivalries” with the caddywacs from a nearby street. They called us the “prossy dogs”. Most of us didn’t have a clue as to why we were on opposite sides, it was somehow passed on through families, even though we were often school friends. Seems a long time ago now but the divisions and prejudice were strong right across the city then.
Thanks Johnny - I remember, as a little boy, watching the parades with my Grandma and Grandad, some 60 years ago. They were the last of our family to celebrate the 12th. My Grandad was a Catholic, and caused a great deal of trouble by converting to marry my Grandma. Seems very silly now.
I wonder which of our current obsessions will seem as stupid to future generations?
My brother married a catholic girl in the late seventies and I remember being sworn not to tell my ageing Orange grandfather about her religion. He was too unwell to attend but the family were worried the fact might finish him off!
Good article. I think some of the rivalry might have dissipated when the large inner city communities such as around the Scotland Road area, which were defined by religion, started to move to outlying areas where catholics and protestants were more integrated.
I tend to agree with that assumption, as that happened with us when our family was moved out to a brand new Housing Estate. As we gradually got to know our neighbours better, we discovered that many of them had been moved from the South of Liverpool (mostly Dingle) to their new houses in the North. The religion/religious factor never really came into the equation, it would simply be ......................... from over the road, or from the top of the street, or next door
Excellent article. Typically fine, balanced and informative journalism with a human face. Thank you.
A thoughtful and considered piece - exactly why we subscribe to The Post.
We took the kids on holiday a few summers ago to Belfast for a week and visited the Orange Lodge museum in the east of the city. After 'Belfast', the most common geographical reference by some distance was 'Liverpool'.
Kirkby had a good mix of both Catholics and Protestants.
The Orange Parades of the 70s were epic - part of a giant feeder march for the 12th July. The drums were beaten just a little bit louder as they passed each Catholic Church. The men smartly dressed, with the suits, sashes and little hats. Shoes shining and the women also dressed for the occasion - looking like they were off to some social event, which they were.
The baton throwers were Kings for a day - their balancing and throwing skills a marvel to see. Likely been practising it since children. They led each section or so it seemed.
A mate of mine decided to cross the road as one long march made its way past the now gone Sacred Heart Church Kirkby. He was kicked but nothing too vicious. He met the shiny shoes of burly Orangemen not amused at the cheeky little git. He was able to walk away. Many marchers ended up in Southport - for a relaxed evening of drink, fish and chips and maybe a go on the old Penny Falls in the arcades.
Also the odd little sing-a-long of 'Paddy Was a Bas****' with the other side singing 'come and fight me like a man'. Both sides had songs taunting opponents - and both celebrated victories over each other.
Trouble broke out sometimes. I was told youths gathered on the railway bridge in Towerhill Kirkby to hurl things down on marchers. A bit before my day in the early 70s. I can recall going into Kirkby homes with IRA memorabilia and others with UVF and so on. An older Irish neighbour, Moira, once asked my mum if she wanted her to keep visiting as the IRA had been busy blowing up the general public and this made some Irish feel very uncomfortable.
I guess its progress that both sides are not killing each other these days. And like it or not the traditions of the Loyalist Orange did make for a better community in that people gathered and got to know each other. They knew neighbours and knew if Mrs Hanlon down the road was struggling to get to the shops.
Both sides were like that. Based in working class communities which had little going in the way of materialistic offerings, they had to entertain themselves and look after each other. Now communities are far richer materially - but a lesser community spirit prevails.
Neither side wanted to rule the world. As bad as the terrorism got their goals were never such that they could not be accommodated. Unlike some terrorists there was an end goal which was reasonable.
It's sad we have lost that the sense of community loyalists once had. These days old Mrs Hanlon could lie dead for a few weeks in some modern community. Many do not know their neighbours names and don't mind if they don't know them.
Nothing unites the community these days. No one common denominator. Many reject religion. Many have no passion shared by others. Politics is a spectator sport at best. And a grift at worse with the usual suspects lining up for grants and favours.
There is no passion in politics these days - just self advancement. Nest are lined. Nest eggs created. Even the unions have this culture these days. Paid more than some bosses juggling a small business but without the risk. All union losses written off with barely an investigation. Woke madness exists with some also but thats for another day perhaps. I'd join a union if I was working. Bad as they are - I'd not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Old fashioned rituals point to some continuity in community. If we have no past it's easy to manipulate us to be whatever the government need us to be. And nobody wants that. Except the Government.
They want us easily moulded, manipulated by influencers, sports, bad music and bread and circus rituals. Without a past we are nothing. Driftwood on the tide.
I'm a Catholic. I'm likely a republican also - but an English one. But I wish the Orange Lodge and Liverpool Loyalists all the best in keeping traditions going.
Good reply Michael, and more balanced than the actual article
As the article says the Orange Order sustained the Tories, in Liverpool, well past their sell by date. A classic example of divide and rule and getting people to vote against their own best interests!
I'm a republican but find it quite amusing that Liverpool fans boo the national anthem as John Houlding, their founder, was a Tory Alderman and a Grand Master of the Orange Lodge.
Back in the day the Liverpool Co-operative Society had a foot in both camps; their shops in the Catholic areas were painted green and in the Protestant area they were painted orange.
I think the Liverpool green/orange divide went deeper into the public psyche than just those who paraded and marched etc. I grew up C of E but my family weren't churchgoers and I only went to church with the school (twice a week).
My mum wasn't even English never mind a Scouser but after I'd introduced my future wife to her in 1969 she asked me if she was a Catholic. Apparently the big giveaway was her middle name of Bernadette and her red hair which made her 'look Irish' (whatever Irish women looked like) !!
Fortunately, my future in laws didn't seem bothered that their daughter was marrying a former Protestant and now confirmed atheist. Quite progressive really, for the time, but the grip of the church was already starting to loosen and now, as in Ireland, is largely a thing of the past.
Check out Alan Bleasdale's 1985 black comedy 'No Surrender' about a sectarian clash in a social club in Liverpool...some great acting - https://www.foundthatfilm.co.uk/epages/es133404.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/es133404/Products/%22No%20Surrender%22
Apparently, the Orange Lodge parade would take well over half an hour to pass by on the 12th of July back in the 1970s as they neared Exchange Station and the specially chartered trains that waited to take them to Southport. At a walking pace of say, 3mph, that would make the procession 2 miles long, maybe more. It must've been quite a sight to see.
I say "apparently" and "must've" because I never saw them pass by myself. I was marching with them as a junior member. Mervyn Busteed is quite right when he says that the Lodge was as much about the social life and family connections as anything else, at least from my child's perspective. I do know that at the time, the 12th was my fourth favourite day of the year after Christmas, birthday and bonfire night.
I walked away from The Lodge in my mid teens but I still miss the camaraderie and singing the old songs. The grip that the religious / doctrinal aspect had on members of The Lodge had loosened quite a bit by the time I left. I remember my mum telling me repeatedly that she'd forgive me if I married a [Catholic], as long as I really loved her.
In the end I married a Methodist though and I'm not convinced she ever forgave me for that
Back in 1940s/50s Page Moss our street was a friendly-ish mix of catholics and protestants, where youngsters attended school at either St Ally's or Park View. I remember my mother who, with my father, had been a refugee from the middle of town (Highfield St and Shadlow St respectively), keeping an eye on new neighbours (itself a shock to the system) who had a motorbike and sidecar and never spoke to anyone. When one 12th July they set off with the sidecar decked out in orange regalia, her worst fears were confirmed.
Have a female friend, aged 81. 1 of 6, grew up in the Dingle in a 2 up,/2 down, outside loo etc. Dad was a docker. Still votes Tory because her Dad did.
An 'OK' piece but typically poorly researched. Your use of the word words 'the North' when referring to Northern Ireland shows your pre-conceived ideation prior to speaking to a member of the Orange Institution. There are more than a few 12th parades throughout mainland Britain.
Yes, today is far different from 50 years ago (or longer), but even back then my Roman Catholics mates would go to Southport on the Twelfth.
Old-fashioned? Perhaps to some, but look at the reason why we celebrate Bonfire Night, not too different ;-)
PS. Your photo of "The Orange Lodge on Mill Street in the Dingle" shows a social club frequented by all sections of the community - the 'Orange Lodge' is the building next door!
Would think something like this would die out over time, with younger people no longer interested or wanting membership. Would like to see a Post piece about Freemasons in Liverpool, would be an interesting piece.
For anyone interested in the early(pre WW1) history of sectarian trouble in the town/city, I recommend Frank neal’s Sectarian Violence: the Liverpool Experience. It’s hard to get hold of nowadays but the thesis that became the book is free to read online : https://salford-repository.worktribe.com/preview/1500415/Neal.pdf
And then there's this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfxv7GllPGA
Thanks a million! I was thinking of that movie - could not recall the title - but have had an ear worm regarding the singing of the song 'Paddy was a bastard - eee, aye, eee, aye, ee aye oh'
Great movie.
Very interesting piece thank you. I asked my mum if I could join when I was younger as it looked great fun, my mum said no, not explaining that Catholics weren’t allowed in. We had neighbours who were big into it, but never had any bother and looked out for each other.